EMILY FENG, HOST:
Every week on the NPR podcast Wild Card, host Rachel Martin gets guests - some of them quite famous - to open up about big subjects.
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MATTHEW MCCONAUGHEY: Ambition has led me astray at times. I bruised some people along the way. And I look back, and I regret that.
FENG: That's Academy Award-winning actor Matthew McConaughey, who Martin spoke with in September. The premise of the podcast is that guests pick a card from a deck of questions. The idea is chance, in a way, decides what subjects they'll talk about. Some questions can go quite deep, too.
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RACHEL MARTIN: Have you made peace with mortality?
What's a routine from your childhood that you miss?
What's something you thought about yourself that you had to unlearn?
LEE HALE, BYLINE: The cool thing about that is we realized, people almost treated it like the card was asking the question, and they didn't even, like, hold Rachel responsible for asking, you know, a hard question. It was, like, this third party.
FENG: That's Wild Card producer Lee Hale. Dave Blanchard, who edits the podcast, summed it up this way.
DAVE BLANCHARD, BYLINE: It's a way to just sort of - yeah - like, skip past, you know, the small talk-y sort of things and just, like, dive right into some deeper topics.
FENG: So what is the secret to get people we all think we know to reveal something about themselves that would surprise us? For this week's Reporter's Notebook, I wanted to talk to Lee and Dave about how they do just that. I started by asking them to describe the podcast.
HALE: Wild Card is a show where you don't have to waste time getting to the really important questions. You can just ask them. And to do that, we put our questions on a deck of cards.
FENG: Dave?
BLANCHARD: The idea is that, like, literally anyone can answer these questions. They're not questions for famous people. They're questions that are universal that anyone can answer. And I think that's part of the, like, magic of it, is that it sort of - it can bring guests that people may think are kind of, like, you know, like, on a pedestal or just, like, you know, not like them in any way and humanize them by having them answer the kinds of questions that, like, are not about fame or necessarily their career.
FENG: What are some examples of questions that you've written?
BLANCHARD: I really love, what's something your parents taught you to love? I think that in the beginning, we had questions about parents that were, like, maybe a little bit more direct and, like, even potentially invasive. I mean, like, people's relationships with their parents are really complicated things and sometimes not, you know, that - not something that necessarily they want to, like, broadcast to, you know - or podcast to a wide audience. But that one's nice 'cause I think it just takes a little sliver of, like, a relationship. I really like that one 'cause I think it's kind of generous, and it's not prying, and it gets people just in a - you know, in a reflective space.
HALE: There's one we have that says, it's - what emotion do you understand better than all the others? Someone said regret. And it's like, we wouldn't have asked them straight up, like, what's your deepest regret in life? - you know? Getting there to, like, the emotion is more satisfying. It's like, they kind of guide us down the path 'cause our questions, I think, are less pointed and kind of allow you to kind of paint the picture the way you want to.
FENG: Well, I'm curious 'cause you've booked a lot of A-listers on the show. You've gotten people like Michelle Obama, Matthew McConaughey, Malala Yousafzai, Brandi Carlile, Weird Al Yankovic, Oprah. Is it hard to book these people? They know they're signing up for a very vulnerable conversation. Can it be hard to convince them to come on?
BLANCHARD: It was at the beginning. I think that, you know, I mean, it's a very intimidating format. It does - it is potentially more personal than a lot of people are used to going. But I think that people began to see it - you know, once it was out in the world and they could listen and sort of, like, understand what was going on, I think that people saw it as, like, a way to see - to show a different side of themselves that doesn't necessarily always come across in any given interview. You know, luckily, I think the other thing that people have realized in - once the show was out there is just what a trustworthy host Rachel is, that she's not going to, you know, pick at a scab or go someplace that is clearly going to, you know, cause any trauma or be triggering in any way, and that they're in safe hands with Rachel. But they begin to see that, you know, this is a way to really show a side of themselves that doesn't come across in a lot of interviews.
HALE: Can I share a Weird Al anecdote?
FENG: Absolutely.
HALE: 'Cause if someone grew up in the '90s like me, he just looms large.
FENG: And me.
HALE: There you go. So Weird Al is kind of - we like living legends, especially - like, I mean, like Harrison Ford, Michelle Obama, Oprah. It's like, these people - they've lived their professional lives, but they - they're bigger than their professional lives, right? And Weird Al was just fun to have on. I'm so glad that he was game. And there was this really sweet moment where he's responding to this question - what period of your life do you daydream about? And his answer was - had to do with his daughter and how he wished that he had a version of his daughter at every age kind of, like, living at home with him still.
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AL YANKOVIC: It would be great if we had a Nina at every age living in our house, just 1 through 22 - 22 Ninas...
MARTIN: (Laughter).
YANKOVIC: ...'Cause each one is so special and so beautiful and lovely.
MARTIN: True.
YANKOVIC: It's such a sense of loss when that person becomes something else - equally good, but you're missing the other person. You know what I mean?
HALE: I could tell he was, like, moved. And it was interesting also because when you interview celebrities, those quotes kind of go around the internet. And, like, you know, it'll be like in a People headline or something. And it was kind of satisfying to be like, this is such a fun thing to go, like - kind of have a little mini-viral moment, is how much he loves his daughter. It's, like, so sweet and so real, and it just happened to be Weird Al.
FENG: Yeah.
HALE: It could have been any other dad. It just happened to be this guy who wrote this, you know, fantastic music.
FENG: One thing I enjoy about listening to the show is Rachel - the host's reactions when she's learning something new and unexpected about the guests. For example, you interviewed Lena Dunham at one point, and she talks about these family memories and going to the Met. And I like that wonder, that - and joy that's expressed on the show. But I'm sure you're also doing a ton of research about these people, as well, right? So what is the right balance between knowing everything about the person you're about to interview but then also leaving room for discovery?
HALE: For the most part, the surprise is genuine, and I think it's - you want to know the bio, the important points of this person's life. You don't need to know everything they've ever told anybody.
FENG: OK.
HALE: And you want to feel more like a natural conversation between two people. You don't know every anecdote they've shared about their younger brother when they were growing up, you know? So I feel like I kind of - I think she has a - strikes a nice balance. We do the research. We give it to her, and I think it's kind of on her to know enough without knowing too much.
FENG: What's an example of an episode that went in a totally different direction than you expected?
BLANCHARD: The Harrison Ford episode just went to a deeper place than anyone was expecting. You know, I think that he really - it really was him reflecting on his life.
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HARRISON FORD: I didn't work as hard at some things as I should have. I've not been as good a parent as I should have been. That kind of stuff.
MARTIN: Yeah.
BLANCHARD: It wasn't the same kind of old Harrison Ford interview that you, you know, see where he's kind of just curmudgeonly and grumpy in a kind of, like, funny way. Like, he really did open up in a way that, I think, was, like - was really, really, really powerful.
HALE: There's also this moment from Michelle Obama. There's so much to talk about with Michelle Obama. But it was her talking about her mother reckoning with her mortality....
FENG: I know that moment so well.
HALE: ...And just kind of being like, Wow, it went fast - you know, life.
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MICHELLE OBAMA: She said, this went fast. And this was the woman who was ready. So I hope I feel that way - even though I will be ready for it, you know, because it's been good and purposeful - that I'll feel like (vocalizing), I wish I had more time.
HALE: And it was like, it just felt like you could just feel that she was just really trusting us with this little moment as a listener and as a host, you know, to Rachel. It was just like, oh, wow. This is just so human, and you could feel the realness of that. And that's kind of what we crave, I think, is moments like that, where you're like, I didn't expect to land here, and this is lovely and moving.
FENG: You have another episode with Melinda French Gates, and you talked to her about her marriage with Bill Gates. And you - I mean, Rachel brings up the fact that her ex-husband, Bill Gates, was in the Epstein files, appears to have had some kind of relationship with Epstein. How do you balance the emotional safety that you want to create in an interview with journalistic responsibility to talk about what's happening in the news?
HALE: That was a - it was a unique situation. We had booked that interview months in advance, and it just happened to fall after the news. And yeah, Rachel - host of Wild Card - she's also, you know, former Morning Edition host. She's a journalist. So when you have Melinda French Gates in the seat, you need to talk about the elephant in the room, and she literally used those words.
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MARTIN: I have to acknowledge the elephant in the room at this moment. Your ex-husband, Bill, is named in the newest tranche of Epstein files.
MELINDA FRENCH GATES: Yeah.
MARTIN: And there are a new - alleged details about his past behavior, and I want to give you the opportunity to respond in whatever way you want to.
HALE: She didn't pry. She basically gave Melinda French Gates, who's talking to NPR - this is your opportunity to speak to this thing in the news. And she kind of took it from there. Maybe if it was a ALL THINGS CONSIDERED interview, there would have been a few more follow-ups or something, but we - I think we all decided that it was right for Rachel to give her a chance to speak to it. And I think, you know, that clip kind of went all over the place because it was Melinda French Gates kind of taking her time on - to kind of say her piece.
FENG: That was Dave Blanchard, an editor on Wild Card, and Lee Hale, a producer on Wild Card. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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