STEVE INSKEEP, HOST:
For almost 20 years now, I've been following the career of Mike Pence.
MIKE PENCE: You know, Steve, we both hail from Indiana.
INSKEEP: True.
He talked with NPR as a conservative House Republican, as vice president and then as the former official who had refused President Trump's demand to help overturn the 2020 election. Pence's politics remained consistent while his party changed. Pence's latest book includes a critique of the second Trump administration and what he terms the populist right. His book "What Conservatives Believe" supports free trade and free markets while challenging Trump's tariffs and other interventions in the economy.
PENCE: Well, the - from, I think, the very first instance when the new Trump administration announced that they were going to take shares in Nippon's purchase of U.S. Steel, I was struck by the fact that Senator Elizabeth Warren said - and I quote it in my book. She said, I think Donald Trump has come across an idea that I came up with years ago. But honestly, Steve, you know, the idea of government ownership of private enterprise was not her idea. That - Karl Marx actually came up with that.
INSKEEP: Are you also concerned about what might be described as political favoritism of companies? The Ellisons, who are close supporters of the president, have received regulatory approval to create a giant media conglomerate. We could go on and on with examples, but that's one. What do you think?
PENCE: Steve, I think it's one of the lesser-reported aspects of the tariff regime that's been imposed by the administration, is that the granting of waivers to large corporations of certain tariffs means that small-business America, small-business Indiana, largely gets left out of the equation.
INSKEEP: And these are waivers for companies that are close to the president. Is...
PENCE: Oh, the...
INSKEEP: ...That the connection you're making?
PENCE: That - I don't think there's any question they have access to the White House, and they're able to get some accommodation or consideration in that. You know, the foundation that I created, Advancing American Freedom, actually came up with a study about six months ago that in the first year of this administration, lobbying fees in Washington, D.C., had increased by tenfold. I mean, people that want to drain the swamp in Washington, D.C. - there's maybe nothing more swampy than the battle over getting tariff waivers for big business. And I think you make a great point.
INSKEEP: I want to ask about another aspect of your argument here. In listing what conservatives believe, you say conservatives believe that all men are created equal. Of course, you're quoting the Declaration of Independence - not very controversial. However, there is debate on the political right about the role and the future of men and women. When you say all men are created equal, do you include women?
PENCE: Oh, of course, Steve. At our core, this nation will remember in just a few weeks the signing of the Declaration of Independence 250 years ago. That principle that throughout mankind - that all men and women are created equal derived from the belief among our founders that we're endowed by our creator with certain inalienable rights of life and liberty and the pursuit of happiness. And I just think as we celebrate the 250th anniversary, we'd do well to return to first principles.
INSKEEP: There are some on the political right who have popularized the idea of one family, one vote. There's a man. There's a woman. There's children. The husband votes. The woman does not vote. You're smiling as I speak. What do you think of that idea?
PENCE: Well, I - it's one person, one vote in this country, and people have bled and died for that principle. When it comes to the American family, there is a move among the populist right to expand government programs deep into the family to drive certain outcomes. I can tell you as a father of three, the grandfather of five, what American families need is an application of the kind of principles that'll create higher wages, more opportunities, more jobs. And I'm confident the American family'll thrive.
INSKEEP: There's another thing I want to ask about because you clearly admire Barry Goldwater. You write about him in the opening pages of the book. He was an antecedent to Ronald Reagan. And there is one part of Goldwater's record that would seem suddenly to be relevant again. He voted against the Civil Rights Act of 1964...
PENCE: He did.
INSKEEP: ...As a senator. The civil rights legislation in the 1960s is now being rejudged or relitigated before the Supreme Court. We're changing the rules as we speak for redistricting. It will affect this fall's elections. Should conservatives stand for civil rights?
PENCE: Well, I think one of the greatest legislative accomplishments of the last century was the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Barry Goldwater, in his famous book "Conscience Of A Conservative" that inspired my new book, voted against it - opposed it. But to his undying credit, he regretted that. Now, the Supreme Court recently said that race cannot be taken into account when drawing congressional district lines, recognizing that civil rights protections flow to the individual and not to drive outcomes. I support the legal foundation under that decision. But I really do believe that ensuring that we as conservatives are articulating that vision of equality of opportunity goes to the very heart of our movement.
INSKEEP: I'm thinking about that Supreme Court ruling, which had to do with another 1960s law - this 1965 Voting Rights Act...
PENCE: Right.
INSKEEP: ...And the rules under which the federal government might mandate redistricting in a state that historically had districted Black people out of power. And if I can summarize the court ruling, they're saying, actually, if you try to correct that, you're the racist. If you're creating a majority-Black district, you may be discriminating. And the legislature, in this case, is entirely free to do almost anything they want so long as they say they were purely partisan. Is that really in line with the intent of the constitutional amendments underlying all this and in line with the 1965 act?
PENCE: Well, I think it's - if you understand that civil rights flow to the individual, my reading - and I haven't read the whole opinion. But my reading and my support for that decision is that the focus is on the individual and preserving the civil rights of individuals and then allowing - I'm not a big fan of partisan gerrymandering, Steve, full disclosure. But it's the system that we have. And just ensuring that race in no aspect plays a role in partisan gerrymandering, I think, is proper.
INSKEEP: Mr. Vice President, thanks for coming by.
PENCE: Thank you, Steve. Great to see you.
INSKEEP: His new book is "What Conservatives Believe."
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