LEILA FADEL, BYLINE: Earlier this year, Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth invited Pastor Doug Wilson to give a sermon at the Pentagon.
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PETE HEGSETH: First of all, thank you for being here.
DOUG WILSON: Thank you.
HEGSETH: Thank you for your leadership, for your mentorship.
FADEL: Wilson was invited as part of Hegseth's monthly Christian worship service.
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WILSON: We are praying in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. With His blood, he purchased all the nations of men. And, Father, this includes our nation.
FADEL: His appearance at the Pentagon was controversial. Wilson is a self-described Christian nationalist. He's called for repealing a woman's right to vote. He's defended slavery. He believes homosexuality should be a crime. Wilson also wants the U.S. to become a Christian theocracy, even though the Constitution prohibits the government from establishing a national religion. Those beliefs are extreme, and a few years ago, they were fringe. But today, Wilson's teachings are entering the mainstream according to religion scholars. The most prominent member of his church network is the defense secretary, Pete Hegseth. That is why I recently sat down with Doug Wilson at his main church in Moscow, Idaho, where I started by asking him about that relationship.
WILSON: I met him a few times at church, once in Tennessee, and once or twice in D.C. And we've texted some, but not a lot.
FADEL: Does he ever seek your advice or the advice of other pastors within your church network on policy matters?
WILSON: Not to my knowledge. Certainly not for me. There's an important distinction to be made. I think it is crucial for pastors when it comes to situations like this to stay in their lane. Let's say I've got thoughts on the Strait of Hormuz. I don't have security clearances. I wasn't elected to anything. So no, I want to stay in my lane and not do anything.
FADEL: You said you don't support forever wars.
WILSON: No, I don't.
FADEL: Has this gone on too long?
WILSON: Yep. Yeah. The bombing campaign was a short, brief war. I would have much preferred to have us just do that and get out. But it seemed like more of an entanglement than I think anybody in the MAGA right likes.
FADEL: Have you communicated these concerns directly to the secretary of defense?
WILSON: No. I've written about them. You know, and he may have read them. But I've been very careful not to take my position as pastor and say, I've got a pipeline to the secretary. Let me tell you what I think about these things. No.
FADEL: Now, you've made it clear that you want a Christian theocracy...
WILSON: Yes.
FADEL: ...In this country. You've declared yourself a Christian nationalist. What would that look like in the United States?
WILSON: It would look like fluffy clouds and unicorns, and everybody would be happy (laughter). What it would look like in practical terms - I would want basically the same constitutional framework that we have now. I love the U.S. Constitution. I think it's a work of theological genius. I like the federal system of subordinate states that have their own powers. I like the separation of powers at the federal level. The things I would change - some would be constitutional amendments. I'd want to see abortion outlawed everywhere. I'd want to see Obergefell overturned.
FADEL: So no same-sex marriage. No abortion.
WILSON: No same-sex marriage. I'd like the LGBTQ+ thing to go away at the legal level.
FADEL: So there would be no legal protections for LGBTQ+ folks?
WILSON: Correct. There would be no special carve-outs for them. Right. I believe that LGBTQ+ people have the right to think what they think and say what they want to say.
FADEL: But you would want to make it illegal for them to be in partnerships. You would want to restrict what they could do in their bedrooms.
WILSON: Oh, you mean, like, sexual partnerships, like marriage? Yeah, so I don't want legal recognition of those relationships.
FADEL: What happens to non-Christians in a country that has long given equal rights and equal protections to all faiths and all - what happens? Can they hold...
WILSON: I would want that...
FADEL: ...Public office?
WILSON: I would...
FADEL: Can they vote? Can they pray in public?
WILSON: Probably the best illustration of this would be church bells, yes. Minarets, no.
FADEL: Why?
WILSON: Because the public space would belong to Christ. So church bells can occupy the public space, but a minaret is a loudspeaker, a big call to prayer. Could Muslims pray to Allah? Yes. Could they gather together to pray to Allah? Yes.
FADEL: But they should do it quietly and in their homes?
WILSON: But they should recognize that they're in a Christian country. And consequently, they should defer to that. Now, the only way that that is ever going to happen is by means of persuasion, evangelism, mass conversion to Christianity. You can't just flip a switch and make this country as cosmopolitan and secular and diverse as it is, and just say, OK, everybody, we're going to do it the Christian way. That's not going to happen.
FADEL: Could they serve in public office? Could they vote?
WILSON: So if you had a Christian republic, the Constitution would be Christian. And an office holder would have to vow to uphold the Constitution. So everybody who holds public office...
FADEL: ...Would have to be Christian?
WILSON: Would have to vow to uphold the Christian Constitution. Yeah.
FADEL: So technically they wouldn't be in public office?
WILSON: Technically, they would not be.
FADEL: But could they vote?
WILSON: Yes, probably. Yes.
FADEL: Now, you've called for repealing women's right to vote, which is protected by the 19th Amendment.
WILSON: Right.
FADEL: Why?
WILSON: Because it's a good idea (laughter). No.
FADEL: A lot of women wouldn't think so.
WILSON: Yeah. A lot of women wouldn't agree. Right. What I envision is a system we have practiced in our church here for four decades, and that is household voting in our polity, in our church system. About 7% of the votes are cast by women because we have a number of women who are heads of their households.
FADEL: So for example, I'm a woman who's not married, who doesn't have children and who is Muslim. So in a future Christian theocracy, where the 19th Amendment is repealed, what is my role in public life? Do I get to vote? Do I get to run for office?
WILSON: No, you wouldn't hold office because you couldn't vow to uphold the Christian Constitution. And whether you voted or not would have nothing to do with whether you are a woman or not. Whether you voted would be...
FADEL: If I'm the head of my household.
WILSON: If you were head of the household and Christian, you would vote.
FADEL: And if I'm head of the household and not Christian?
WILSON: Then that would depend probably on the state.
FADEL: How do you actually get, though, to a Christian theocracy?
WILSON: Yeah, the mechanism...
FADEL: Is it courts?
WILSON: Yeah.
FADEL: Is it schools? Is it violence?
WILSON: No, it's not violent - not violence. It is preaching the gospel, planting churches, starting classical Christian schools, working your tail off, basically.
FADEL: But you would have to change portions of the Constitution to become a theocracy.
WILSON: Actually, no.
FADEL: I mean, a lot of constitutional scholars would disagree with you.
WILSON: Yeah. And I disagree with them.
FADEL: With so many evangelicals in the administration that are connected to your church, do you feel in this moment that your religious worldview is closer to power than it's ever been, that your vision of what the U.S. should be is closer?
WILSON: I think it'd be fairer to say that my vision, our vision of what the intersection of theology and politics should be is closer to getting a hearing, which is very different than here are the levers of power. That's not where we are. In the last five years, we have gotten a much more significant hearing than we ever have before.
FADEL: Doug Wilson, thank you so much for sitting down with us. We really appreciate it.
WILSON: Happy to do it.
FADEL: That was pastor Doug Wilson. He spoke on video for the NPR series Newsmakers. The full conversation is on the NPR app and on YouTube.
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