SCOTT DETROW, HOST:
As we heard, Lindsey Graham believed deeply in the power of U.S. foreign policy to shape the world. He believed it so deeply that he often fully reversed course on a whole range of other beliefs and stances in order to allow himself to keep advocating for it. Mark Leibovich documented those shifts and the choices that Graham made, first at the New York Times, and then at The Atlantic, where he's now a staff writer. Mark, thanks for joining us.
MARK LEIBOVICH: My pleasure, Scott.
DETROW: In a profile you wrote that a lot of people revisited over the last day or so, you wrote that relevant was perhaps Lindsey Graham's favorite word. What do you mean by that?
LEIBOVICH: Well, he used it all the time. I mean, people repeatedly asked him the question, how could you possibly flip, you know, so dramatically from Donald Trump critic, as you were in 2016 when you ran against him - vociferous critic - to such a, basically, sycophant a lot of people said, someone who would basically do anything to remain on the right side of Donald Trump. And he would just say, repeatedly, anyone who knows me knows that relevance is most important to me, meaning, I want to be in the room. I want to be in the action around the people who are making the decisions, whether I've liked them in the past, whether I've agreed with them in the past, or not. So as we've mentioned, as, you know, many people have mentioned, that involved compromises. These were compromises that a lot of people found deeply offensive after a while, but it worked for Lindsey Graham.
DETROW: You know, so many other Republicans have twisted and turned and contorted themselves over the past decade to align themselves with Trump and the MAGA movement. What do you think it is that made Graham stand out so much?
LEIBOVICH: He was so ostentatious about it. I mean, he's also quite a showman in his own way. I mean, you know, he's someone who loves attention. He loves to be in the mix. He loves to be on the golf course with these people. But I do think that he was so passionate, especially with John McCain back in the day, about how dangerous they thought Trump was that to do the 180 that he did, I think people really, really were struck by. I also think that given that John McCain was really his closest friend, maybe in the world, and to have John McCain die and Donald Trump continue to just trash him up and down...
DETROW: Yeah.
LEIBOVICH: ...And Graham not really do anything about it, at least, you know, that we saw, was also very offensive to people.
DETROW: You know, I was thinking about this, though. On the day that Lindsey Graham dies, America is at war with Iran. This is a military action he advocated for for years. It's still in NATO. It's still back in Ukraine. Did he get what he wanted out of all of this?
LEIBOVICH: I don't think all he wanted, but I think that it was an ongoing struggle for him, but I think he won some major victories. I mean, I think you just said. I mean, the lay of the land is such that it's much more in keeping with what Lindsey Graham would have wanted than what the isolationists in Donald Trump's orbit would have asked for, also. So, look, I mean, Lindsey Graham, I mean, he might have flip-flopped on some very essential things regarding Trump. But I think his North Star around foreign policy stayed pretty steady. And I think Ukraine and a lot of - you know, I think Ukraine benefited from it. I think Russia did not. And I think a lot of our allies benefited.
DETROW: A lot of people try to influence Trump, and a lot of people fail, or they succeed for a short amount of time, and then they fail.
LEIBOVICH: Right.
DETROW: How exactly did Lindsey Graham get and keep the president here?
LEIBOVICH: That's a great question. I mean, I think he worked it really, really hard. I think he was very, very good at knowing what - sort of what zones to sort of play in. I mean, he knew what TV shows the president watched. He knew what kind of language really got him going. He told me once that if you flatter him too much, he'll lose respect for you. But also, if it's a foreign policy matter, if I want to do something and he doesn't, I'll just tell him that Barack Obama wanted to do the opposite of what he was pushing for, and then he would come around to his position. So he basically had a lot of tricks, but he also worked it really, really, really hard, and he just loved it so much. He was so - he just loved the idea that he was friends with the president of the United States, and, you know, Trump's susceptibility to flattery was such that I think he liked that, too.
DETROW: Yeah. He famously gave that speech on January 6, when the Senate reconvened after the insurrection saying, count me out, enough is enough. Within a matter of months, he's on the phone with Trump and visiting Mar-a-Lago. Do you think he was one of the key players in kind of rehabilitating Trump in the party, or do you think that was happening anyway, and Graham saw what was happening?
LEIBOVICH: I think it seemed to be happening anyway. I mean, certainly Kevin McCarthy going down to Mar-a-Lago, certainly, Mitch McConnell saying that he would support the Republican nominee. I mean, there were a bunch of episodes like that. But certainly Graham doing that also was notable, although, I mean, Graham in the telling would say that he came around pretty quickly. And I think he gave a pretty labored explanation, saying, well, when he said that - when he said, I'm out, he meant it just on the challenging of the election results, not on the relationship. So once the election had been settled, he sort of turned around and sort of continued to nourish the relationship.
DETROW: Complicated question - though we only have 30 seconds left, I'll try it anyway - what, in the end, do you think Graham's legacy is?
LEIBOVICH: Oh, boy. I think he triggered a lot of people. I think he got a lot of good done on foreign policy. I think his allies are very appreciative of him, and I think the fact that - I don't know - he's been a pretty -there's been a pretty bipartisan sort of outburst of support for him is itself telling in this day and age.
DETROW: That's political journalist Mark Leibovich. Thank you so much.
LEIBOVICH: Thanks, Scott. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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