A MARTÍNEZ, HOST:
We're joined now by a Senate colleague of the late Lindsey Graham. Richard Blumenthal is a Democrat from Connecticut. He recently partnered with Graham on a bipartisan push to ramp up sanctions against Russia for its full-scale invasion of Ukraine. Senator, I understand you were in contact with Graham just this weekend. Anything you can tell us about that last conversation?
RICHARD BLUMENTHAL: In my last conversation with Senator Graham, he was absolutely exultant, calling from Kyiv. In fact, we had a number of conversations seeking final approval from the White House for our Russia sanctions bill, which he was going to discuss with President Zelenskyy. And, in fact, confirmation came through at the very last moment that President Trump would support a bill that we'd drafted in lengthy, painstaking sessions which would impose scorching tariffs and sanctions on purchasers of Russian oil and stop them from fueling Putin's war machine. So he was really over the moon, saying, we've done good. This is a big effing deal. He was in great shape.
MARTÍNEZ: Do you think, Senator, that his death could have impacts somehow on that and also U.S. support for Ukraine more broadly?
BLUMENTHAL: My hope is very honestly that his Republican colleagues and some of my Democratic colleagues will see it as a fitting tribute to pass this legislation right now. Senator Graham, in his final moments on this Earth, was very aware of the critical moment that we have right now. Ukraine has turned the tide on the battlefield. It is actually gaining net territory. It's inflicting losses of about 30,000 more casualties a month on Russia. It has set back Russia's economy. It's reaching deep into Russia with its drones and missiles. And now these sanctions would be pivotal in getting Putin to the peace table. That was his objective. And my hope is that his death, tragic as it is, will provide an impetus to President Trump and my Republican colleagues to pass the Russia sanctions bill.
MARTÍNEZ: That was Senator Graham's tenth wartime trip to Ukraine over the past weekend. Yeah. So - and one other thing, too, because Senator Graham had an interventionist approach to foreign policy that maybe you don't often find in President Trump's America First circle. What do you think his death could mean more broadly for U.S. foreign policy, at least in the short term?
BLUMENTHAL: My hope - again, it's a hope, not by any means a prediction or a certainty - is that maybe President Trump will view more favorably the kind of nonisolationist view of the world that Senator Graham believed in so deeply. I hope that his legacy, at least in part, is that America has a vital role to play in defending democracy in Ukraine because it is in our self-interest to stop Putin before he attacks NATO nations - Poland, Finland, the Baltic states - where then we would have an Article 5 obligation to put troops on the ground. So Ukraine is doing the fighting and dying, but it's our fight to stop Putin and defend democracy there, which is vital to our national self-interest. And I hope his death, while not itself necessarily a persuasive factor, will open minds to be more receptive.
MARTÍNEZ: Where in other areas - where did you, as a Democrat, also align with Lindsey Graham on?
BLUMENTHAL: I worked with Lindsey Graham on internet safety, particularly for children. We supported a measure called the EARN IT Act, which said to Big Tech - which right now, as you know, has immunity under Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act. This immunity is so exceptional and, in fact, unique, but Big Tech gained it at a time when it was nascent and small. Now it is immune from any real restraint in the harm that it does to children and others. So Senator Graham and I were very insistent that Section 230 should be modified - in fact, eliminated. And he was also a champion of certain gun violence protection measures. We worked together on a red-flag statute that became part of the Safer Communities Act - the Bipartisan Safer Communities Act. He was a defender of his views very staunchly, but willing to work across the aisle.
MARTÍNEZ: One more thing, Senator. I want to raise something that's become common in our hyperpartisan climate online. People who disagreed with Graham politically are celebrating his death. You knew him. Can you share your thoughts on the man he was and the legacy he leaves?
BLUMENTHAL: I disagreed profoundly and passionately with Senator Graham on many issues - the SAVE Act, Iran, his approach to the budget and taxation. He justified the massive tax cuts. We disagreed often, but we worked together where we could find common ground and where we could advance selected interests. And I think he was a believer in the Senate as an institution in trying to get things done, trying to make it function and work so as to produce measures that benefit the American people. But I will emphasize, you know, our disagreements were vehement and sometimes, in fact, extremely vigorous, to the point of not talking. But, you know, he believed in coming back and trying to get things done.
MARTÍNEZ: Senator Graham was also an ally and a friend of Donald Trump. Not always the case. In 2015, he famously called Trump a, quote, "race-baiting, xenophobic religious bigot." Why do you think - Senator Blumenthal, why do you think he ultimately decided to align himself with Trump after he won that first presidential election?
BLUMENTHAL: You know, really honestly, I am not going to try to psychoanalyze Lindsey Graham. Obviously, he had some of the most impactful epithets about Donald Trump at various points and, frankly, to the frustration of our mutual friend John McCain, who was staunchly opposed to Trump to the very end of his life. Lindsey Graham had a more favorable relationship with Trump. Obviously, he probably would say that he had to do it because it was necessary to get things done, and he had to have this relationship with the president of the United States - very far from my attitude. I have fought President Trump at almost every turn. I regard him as a grave danger to democracy. And Lindsey Graham and I rarely talked about Trump or his reason - in fact, I don't think we ever talked about his reasons for supporting Trump when he did.
MARTÍNEZ: That's Democratic Senator Richard Blumenthal of Connecticut. Senator, thank you very much for your thoughts on this.
BLUMENTHAL: Thank you.
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